If This Is What The Manosphere Is About, I Want No Part Of It

I debated writing this post. I see plenty of stuff written in blogs that I disagree with on a daily basis – indeed the world would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything all the time, even within the small portion of the internet we refer to as the manosphere. I usually refrain from commenting, because mainly it’s a simple difference of opinion, doesn’t really hurt anyone, and I can’t help but feel that it’s somehow bad manners to go over to someone else’s blog and start telling them how you think they’re wrong – it’s kind of like walking up to someone’s front door and taking a turd on the doormat.

I read something tonight however that I just felt I couldn’t keep silent about. This post is from last year some time, but I’ve only just noticed it due to it being linked on Twitter. Judge for yourselves – http://elementsofgame.wordpress.com/2012/09/15/a-craigslist-ad-answered/ (also http://bit.ly/YRHblh – Google’s cached version on the offchance the post is removed).

The manosphere is many things to many people. A lot of people first come here looking for tips on picking up girls, and find themselves a year later deep down a pathway of personal development and self improvement. I was firmly in this camp when I came to this part of the internet.

As time has progressed, I view things differently. To me, the manosphere I want to be associated with, and contribute to in my own small way, is about aspiring to improve yourself as an individual. Becoming a better man, earning more money, getting in shape, improving your social skills, and so on and so forth. A collection of like minded individuals inspiring one another to better themselves. And moreover, to not only increase in accomplishments, but to become a better person as you progress. To earn the respect of others, to be a role model for other men to aspire to, to live your life in a manner befitting a good man, in a way in which you can be proud to look yourself in the eye in the mirror every day, knowing that you live true to your principles.

What is should not be about, is lying, manipulating and conniving in order to obtain what you are after, no matter the cost and who you have to shit on to get it. What makes the above story even more galling is that it is perfectly possible to get all the pussy you could ever want by being a decent, principled individual, who is honest and authentic about their intentions, without resorting to cynically taking advantage of naive young girls by lying to them, systematically sexually humiliating them, and then actually going online to brag about it.

Those of us who run blogs who get even a small amount of daily views must be aware on some level that there are impressionable guys reading these sites, who through the various ills of society lack guidance in how they should be living their lives and conducting themselves as individuals. There is an opportunity to be a role model to people, to promote the living of one’s life on principled terms, whilst still being able to achieve anything you are after, be it looks, money, girls, or a combination of all three. The last thing anyone should be doing is encouraging people to behave in a manner that is directly harmful to other people simply to perpetuate personal gain.

Those two of you that commented on that post – I thought more of the first of you than to condone this sort of thing, and the second is a prime illustration of why this kind of thing is bad when read by people who apparently have impressionable young minds (judging by the word “teen” in your Twitter handle). Giving someone props for “not feeling any guilt” after behaving like that? Really? This is something you aspire to do?

It’s perfectly possible to observe and take advantage of the decline of society, by making the most of promiscuous women and living solely for yourself, without contributing to it by resorting to morally reprehensible behaviour

And in response to the tweet I’ve just seen bemoaning how “it’s sad when the manosphere only wants you to have success “their” way”: I think it’s far sadder that “your” way of having success is to lie to a naive young girl and inflict a sexual episode upon her which will probably stay with her for life purely for your own physical gratification. And then that you complain when you get called out for it.

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32 thoughts on “If This Is What The Manosphere Is About, I Want No Part Of It

  1. This is very refreshing to read. It seems like a part of the manosphere is more like you, and then there is the lying, manipulating, and power hungry men within the sphere.

    This doesn’t make you an asshole. This was very honest and it probably needed to be said. Take pride in the fact that your mentality is what women find attractive, and that you don’t need to lie and cheat your way into a relationship with a woman.

    • Sweetheart. It really is not about you or what women find attractive. A true and virtuous masculinity must be determined by a male code of honour; not by the fantasies or protagorean arrogance of pubescent females. If a woman appreciates that masculinity; fine and dandy. However, a true masculinity will never come to pass by kowtowing to the whims of the opposite sex.

  2. I find it unsettling that the latest “fad” within the Manosphere is adopting all the traits of the Dark Triad…and then turning it up to 11.

    I find that price is way too steep to pay for pussy.

    • Bit dark for Roosh that one – he doesn’t systematically manipulate naive young girls into performing sex acts, or at least he doesn’t write about it if he does!

  3. By its very nature the manosphere will attract woman-haters, social inadequates, nerds and all sorts. It’s inevitable. There’s no real way of preventing it, but they will always be peripheral to the cause IMO. All the positives you mention and more form the core of the manosphere. There is simply too much that is good – necessary, just, and truthful, for it to be hijacked, dominated or even that heavily influenced by wacky outliers, and I do think they are outliers. They’ll never attract any significant readership (two comments on that post??) You have to trust that the community will self-regulate by gravitating towards and providing an audience for what is healthy and useful, and not this kind of pathological nonsense. Sure, this stuff exists in the MoS, but it’s certainly not representative and I wouldn’t give it any more attention or weight than it deserves.

    • Yeah you’re right of course. I won’t be making posts like this a habit, the last thing I want is to become some boring preaching asshole, it just literally disgusted me to the point where I wanted to say something.

  4. There is really only a tiny corner of the manosphere that I can go to. Very few of them are PUA, most just have good advice & info. A lot of site totally make me cringe!

  5. So… that’s it?

    Seriously?

    When you remarked about this on Twitter, I was expecting that you would be calling out one of the big bloggers. But I hadn’t even heard of this guy before you brought him up. Not only that, few if any people would praise his actions or hold him up as a role model, so your holier-than-thou “Well, I’m not as bad as THIS guy!” shtick falls completely flat.

    I don’t care for the blog post that you linked, but unlike you, I’m not going to engage in some obnoxious public display about it. If there are blogs I don’t like, I don’t read them. Simple as that. That’s how the manosphere has always worked; crummy or creepy bloggers are ignored. By writing this priggish post, all you’ve done is gumming up the works.

    Also YSW, a warning: after four years of being involved with the manosphere and its predecessors, I’ve noticed one consistent pattern: bloggers who engage in these kinds of Pharisaical histrionics don’t last long and end up isolated and alone. And no, it’s not because we think that manipulating a whore into fucking in exchange for paying off an $800 phone bill is role model behavior; it’s because we hate moralistic scolds who make loud proclamations about their morality, for the same reason Jesus warned about hypocrites who prayed loudly in public and made shows of how good and holy they were. The fact that half of the people giving you kudos for this post are women (in a wing of the Internet called the MAN-o-sphere) should give you pause.

    Nobody likes a prig.

    • I expected this kind of response really. I’ll respond to your points in an orderly fashion…

      “I was expecting that you would be calling out one of the big bloggers” – that was your supposition, nothing I said. I just said that I’d read a post whereby a fellow ‘sphere blogger (which he is) had been a morally reprehensible asshole (which he was) and I was disgusted by it (which I was).

      “Not only that, few if any people would praise his actions or hold him up as a role model, so your holier-than-thou “Well, I’m not as bad as THIS guy!” shtick falls completely flat.” – if you thought my intent was to point out how much better I am than him, then you mistook the point of the post – I write to try and offer people helpful information on how to improve themselves, not to point out how wonderful I am. Is that why you write?

      “By writing this priggish post, all you’ve done is gumming up the works.” – You are clearly heavily ego invested in the ‘sphere in a strongly proprietary fashion. If no-one wants to read this, then that’s entirely up to them. That’s the beauty of choice.

      “Also YSW, a warning: after four years of being involved with the manosphere and its predecessors, I’ve noticed one consistent pattern: bloggers who engage in these kinds of Pharisaical histrionics don’t last long and end up isolated and alone” – which is labouring under the assumption that I give a fuck about “the hive mind”, which I don’t. If people want to think I’m a dick and stop reading this because of a post where I called out someone for behaving in a disgusting manner – well I think that says a lot more about them than me, and I’ll bid them all a fond farewell, since I clearly stated in the title that I want no part of that. You are of course correct in saying that people don’t want to read this sort of crap – I don’t either, this was a one off. In the little under a year I’ve been reading stuff it’s the first time I’ve seen something like that, so that’s why I felt compelled to comment. It’s the only time I’ve written something like this, and I don’t plan on making a habit of it.

      “it’s not because we think that manipulating a whore into fucking in exchange for paying off an $800 phone bill is role model behavior” – Like I said, which is especially true of you, a lot of bloggers in this part of the net have an opportunity to be a role model to a lot of impressionable young guys. You maybe underestimate the effect words can have on people with no strong identity or moral compass of their own. Look at the comments on Heartiste to see how much people try to model themselves after the bloggers they admire. This hedonistic “I’m just in it for myself, fuck everyone else” mentality is all well and good, it’s mainly how I feel, but only up until the point whereby it starts directly hurting other people, and it needs to be pointed out there is a line. If that’s how you feel, how about spell it out for your readers once in a while. It might do some good.

      “The fact that half of the people giving you kudos for this post are women (in a wing of the Internet called the MAN-o-sphere) should give you pause.” – don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there are quite a lot of them around these parts these days, they agree with the majority of the teachings, and they’re generally liked and respected (amongst those of us that are actually capable of liking women that is). You may have been responsible for a lot of the original content, and it’s important that this stuff is discussed, but the level of venom in a lot of your writings doesn’t indicate a happy, well-balanced individual – it’s more indicative of a humongous ego. If dudes are feeling bitter about society and its ills, then I’d rather give any of the ones that read this ways to help themselves and feel positive, not wallow around in an ever increasing spiral of loathing and misogyny, which helps no-one.

      “Nobody likes a prig.” – “YOU don’t like who YOU consider to be a prig” – there you go, corrected it for you.

      Thanks for taking the time to comment.

      • Dear YSW,

        I really like and respect men. Grew up as the older sister of two fabulous younger brothers and a great dad.
        And so, when I recently stumbled upon the word “manosphere”, I decided to google it – and I’ve been shocked at the level of vitriol and hatred against women. Sickened.

        Thank you for reminding me that there really are great men out there – who want to be with the really great women who make life together a wonderful experience.

        I really admire your principles and your courage and strength in speaking out for both good men and women.

      • Thanks Jane.

        When a lot of guys first get into this stuff, they’re carrying round a lot of resentment and bitterness, for their perceived failure to make their own lives how they wished them to be. They don’t realise it, but the resentment is actually felt for themselves, but rather than facing up to the truth of their own inadequacy, they direct it outwards towards women.

        Now I’m not saying for a second that all women are saints (because they’re certainly not!), and that in all cases the men are unjustified in feeling this way – they might have valid reason after being treated especially badly. Just that I’ve noticed the above tends to be the case the majority of the time.

        There’s certainly never any excuse for maliciously manipulating naive young women simply for your own pleasure.

  6. Oh wow. Not really sure how to react to that kind of depravity. I think you’re right to try and police this kind of thing, otherwise we up end trying to call out feminism while people in our own camp defraud high school girls into sex.

    I put this in a very different category from a straightforward morning after fadeaway.

    • It’s not my intention to try and police anything, and I’d probably call out anyone else that seemed like they were doing that, But you are correct in what you say about calling out women continually for their behaviour, without calling out someone on our side for doing something much worse.

      Personally I like to try and encourage people to better themselves, not to lie, cheat and connive their way into getting what they want out of life.

    • I wouldn’t be surprised if half the time, people like the one who wrote the blog post you’re talking about are deliberately trying to make us look bad.

      Fake Game/PUA is the easiest way to do it.

      “So I raped this 12 year old girl last night. She went home and told her parents but they didn’t believe her. HAhAhaha!”

      That’s the kind of shit feminists do, and it’s effective. Thankfully for us though, they get CAUGHT doing it.

      If something seems wildly out of whack,it’s probably not one of us at all.

  7. You’re right to call this guy out. At the same time you are giving him attention he otherwise would not have gotten. I found your post through the great portal “Viva La Manosphere.”

    Matt Forney is correct too, that we have to be careful condemning even our most marginal brothers because we are already existentially hated by the prevailing zeitgeist.

    At the same time, though, Forney permits too much interpretive latitude: if he cares a great deal about the “manosphere,” he should care about those inside whose missteps have the potential to incite our enemies. Does he want all of his work characterized by some sub-sub blogger predator bragging about the manipulation of a child? What does he think the enemy will do, engage in a thoughtful discussion about Forney’s most subtle posts or wave the bloody shirt of Elements of Game?

    Who Elements of Game is and what he is doing is transparent. He’s a dirtbag who swallowed one dose too many of the “Dark Triad” myth. Look at me! Look at how callous I am! I do what I want! Any man who is a man has the ability to manipulate young girls over the internet. My guess is that his target was some kind of abused, fatherless ghetto rat near the age of majority (above or below, forget what he claims, she was acting like a child in front of a pedophile), who was already easy-pickings.

    He has been given the cover of game jargon to justify his try-hard sociopathy. As much as we love the independence we find in the manosphere, this is our problem, not his. If you want the movement to have any kind of lasting integrity, you have to do regular maintenance an purge the trash from the vessel. Don’t do this to discourage freewheeling honesty and discussion. Do it to maintain the standards of a cause that you want to see become effective in the culture. Or be consigned to the seedy dank underculture where Elements of Game-types prosper like mold.

    In the end, we don’t have to worry about other men’s sin or even morality in general — it is a problem which takes care of itself. Men like Elements of Game shit in their own nest and call it a castle. They debilitate themselves. Their shabby treatment of people is a shabby treatment of self, a double-edged blade that wounds the attacker as much as the victim, dark triad braggadocio notwithstanding.

    Game is an instrument for manipulating women. It is a tool that by itself can do nothing apart from the user’s intent, like a gun is. Feminism believes the manipulation of women is an intrinsic evil, an evil per se, an evil in itself to be eradicated. On the contrary, we here know that manipulating women can be for their own good, especially in this world of unchained hypergamy. They want to be mastered, they need to be mastered in order to flourish, which is why the deepest part of them still instinctively seeks out powerful men and shit tests them. Try-hard twats like Elements of Game actually agree with feminism in that regard — both ugly dyke professors and self-styled “evil” players believe that dominating women must mean treating them poorly.

    Legitimate PUA’s figured this out early with their concept of “leave a girl better than you found her.” The only people who think that improving a woman through gaming her is weak or “beta” — rather than using her up, because you are too pathetic to do otherwise — are the put-upon former omegas who discovered game and owe their entire sense of self-worth to the efficacy of game’s power. In the absence of a purpose in life, the manipulation becomes its own end, so long as the shitbag can brag about it with his online bros.

    You are right to draw the line, You So Would. These alpha mimics and disguised chumps are not us. And the more they usurp our name and reputation, the more they must be treated as enemy interlopers.

    Matt

  8. Your post reminds me of something that I got from reading Bruce Schneier’s “Liars and Outliars”: that shame and calling someone out for shameful actions is a forgotten control mechanism in society. The book itself is more about establishing trust mechanisms in an evolving society, but I think the reference fits here.

    One can just ignore those aspects that he deplores, but in doing so he provides no value-add back to the community. However, if one has a conviction on that matter and speaks about it, then he opens a dialog such as this.

  9. The post was obviously bad but it was honest. It reminded me of Tucker Max’s story “She won’t take no for an answer.”

    I’ve had good friends who have done shit that I have felt crossed the line, and it’s always an awkward moment. You are getting all jokie talking about hooking up with girls, then suddenly shit gets real and you’re like ‘I’m not joking man. You’re my bro but fuck you. you should not have done that.”

    The thing about the “manosphere” is that there is, in the end, no accountability for actions/words. You or I, (newcomers to the sphere, I might add) can write a post and suddenly people could say ‘The manosphere’ says this or that.

    Sorry yousowould I gotta agree with forney on this one, this particular post wasn’t a huge deal to say ‘this is what the manosphere is about.’ Never heard of that blog before you linked it. Shall we differentiate between the pua-sphere and the manosphere?

    That being said, I’ve been putting a lot of thought into the concept of providing value, lately. When I started out my blog it was more a selfish tool for myself to practice writing and develop intellectually, and people can read it if they want. It is always important, though, to think about the value that you are putting forth into the world. Are you creating an image of the world you would want your sons and daughters to live in? If I met that guy and I knew he had done that shit with my daughter, I’d probably end up in jail (for fucking him up).

  10. There are people like that in every sphere and movement, so nothing to worry about. It is not what the manosphere is about. That guy wasn’t even all that popular, so don’t be too concerned with impressionable guys. Mainstream media can hurt them way more then, due to larger exposure.
    But nothing wrong with an occasional post against bad behavior of the people in your own circle.

  11. Didn’t read the linked story, because I don’t have to – there are plenty of “men” out there (and women for that matter) willing to manipulate others – it crosses every boundary of civilization and social-economic banding you care to create.

    I am glad you called it out. We all need to be called out from time to time – for deeds done well as well as those done badly.

    Personally, I think the least important aspect of the Manosphere is the one related to “sex” – which is such a transitory state. My Father used to say something like the following “Sex is a great thing, but even if you had sex for an hour everyday – you’d still have 23 hours of your life to live”. That was one of the best things he ever told/taught me about being a Man. Because no matter where you are along your path in life, if your only pursuit is Sex, you will usually find it less satisfying than you anticipated. In fact, I believe most of the PUA community will tell you that the “pursuit” is more satisfying than the “act”.

    I also believe the best thing the Manosphere can provide for all Men is information, guidance, advice, thoughts, debate, etc. about “how to always be striving to be a better Man” – regardless of your age. To me, that’s less about women/sex and more about life/purpose/goals.

    But hey – to each their own.

  12. The manosphere is so becoming the Pareto 80% meaningless in my life.

    Avoiceformen.com = good stuff
    RooshV = Noteworthy
    Chateau Heartiste = Noteworthy
    Dannyfrom504 = always entertaining when he isn’t sucking Aaron Clarey’s cock
    thespearhead.com = good stuff when W.F. Price isn’t sucking Aaron Clarey’s cock
    Matt Forney = Utterly worthless dogshit from a brainless asshole who should die screaming like a pig in a bacon factory
    Tim Ferriss = Always thoughtful
    Krauser PUA = good stuff when Krauser isn’t sucking Aaron Clarey’s cock
    Capt. Crapitalism = brainless, egotistical hyperbolic dogshit every day of the week

    Basically, there’s nothing left worth noting.

    Manosphere, you truly mean nothing to me. Join the ranks of Jezebel and other faggot sewers of self-absorbed worthlessness.

    • That’s some et, strong sentiment there pal! Presumably I needn’t point out the irony of disparaging the manosphere in the comments section of a manosphere blog.

      What sort of thing would you like to see more of to make the sphere more relevant?

      • Less trumpeting of second-rate stupidity self-published on CreateSpace would be a good start. Bloggers are seriously becoming no different than the MSM in their parroting of each others’ views. I’d like to see bad writers called on their bad writing and pompous BS ridiculed.

        Paul Elam mixed it up with Matt Forney and some clown named Frost. Like him or hate him, Elam sticks to his principles. I have to respect a man who doesn’t praise shit so he can get one more retarded review of his idiotic book.

        The manosphere is becoming more like the femosphere: a bunch of linkage-obsessed hens all carping the same lame tune.

        THAT IS SO FUCKING GAY! 99% of delusiondamage’s blogroll are money-obsessed Tim Ferriss wannabes who will say anything nice about other people’s work so they can keep their linkage.

        That would make them more relevant. For a start.

  13. Great post! I feel the same way! When I read a lot of these type of blogs I cannot help myself to think if this person is really telling the truth. They do not understand that their writings are being read by many people who will believe what they say. Instead of writing about so much negativity why not write about something positive? Like you said in this post that they should write about how to better yourself as a man and such.

    It takes more than “hunting pussy” to be a real man. If that’s what these menu aspire to then they have no intellect, no real sense. Because to be a man it takes much more thought and work just to be a man now. I came into the manosphere looking for betterment and improvement. I have found quite a few people who do teach about this like this blog does. Unfortunately the majority only wants to get laid and not improve themselves.

  14. manwhostaresatgoats

    Well said. You are one of the more level headed people around these parts among with a couple of others (Mark Manson, Keanu, The Private Man, M3, Athol Kay,) just to name a few. I completely agree. For me, I’m all about talking about the gender/social balances that men face, and how men can improve themselves to be the best and most confident men that they can be regardless of getting laid/racking up notches. (not that any of those are inherently bad btw) But it’s when people start advocating the Dark Triad, and harming and violating people’s boundaries is what I can’t tolerate or stand. I even saw a thread on Roosh V Forums of people posting their ‘Dark Triad Scores’. Despicable

    Although I love the manosphere for fostering my self improvement and giving me a space to talk about ‘men’s side of the story in society,’ the manosphere seems to attract a lot of deeply wounded readers (as well as naturals and those in-between.) but the former are the most vocal and prominent. A lot of those folks can do with just reading things like the Rawness: (http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-1/) letters, and sorting out these inner issues before game or alongside it to become more balanced and well-adjusted individuals.

    • That post by the Rawness (h/t Yohami for pointing me to him) was what focused me to change my ways and look to treat the actual disease inside of me with surgical inner game vs. applying bandaids to fatal wounds using game/dark triad to waste my time poon hunting the most broken low self esteem women/trying to use women’s innate hypergamous natures against them for a notch count.

      As i’ve said before, i don’t live in the sphere, i just rent the space for a time.

      • Spot on, this is true red pill – fixing the inner issues. All that machiavellian posturing is just a bandaid, and is never really going to make anyone happy.

  15. Andrew Richards

    Honestly the manosphere is becoming more and more ironic with each passing day. It’s highly telling when those of us who are advocating for men at their most vulnerable – be they those fighting for fathers facing legal injustice, or those of us advocating for male abuse survivors, are driven out of the movement due to a different take on the very same dogmatic crap as feminists.

    In the past week I’ve been banned from one manosphere blog for calling out the blog owner for misandry when he responded mockingly (“rapeflation” was the exact term he used) to my pointing out that male victims of rape through sexual coercion (something which has been found to be widespread in domestic violence situations) and has been found in many victims to leave long term psychological scars.

    In a second blog I’ve been banned for arguing in defence of men who are deeply traumatised and require long term rehabilitation due to trauma – for daring to disagree with the notion of said victims “manning up” and turning a blind eye to the epidemic of male suicide victims out there that the “man up” approach to traumatised men has continued to produce.

    Mine isn’t the only experience of this. I know of a lawyer fighting tirelessly for men victimised by the family court system that has been banned from multiple manosphere blogs – his “crime?” Daring to speak out for fathers alienated and victimised by the corrupt family court system.

    The irony of this is that the feminist narrative thrives on the notion of both the existence of male victims and the need for compassion and support for male victims being perceived as a physical impossibility and an urban myth.

    Feminism takes the “men are only conquerers” dogmatic utterances of the manosphere and use them as the very foundation of “Patriarchal theory” and every subsequent bit of misandry which flows from it.

    You would think that a community which so viscerally opposed feminism would openly welcome actions and positions which both gave justice to men and utterly debunked the feminist narrative.

    Yet ironically, the manosphere rails against male vulnerablitiy and male victims of abuse and injustice as dogmatically as feminists do – both groups seeking to expunge the aforementioned realities as heretical in the same way that the Salem witch trials sought to expunge a suspected witch.

    I’m not sure whether to shake my head in contempt, disgust, or tragedy at the ironic hypocrisy of it all….

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